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Making Sense: A Sunni backing Shia Azerbaijan?


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Evidence from Sunnah
 
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ ، حدثنا بَحْرٌ ، حدثنا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ ، أَخْبَرَنِي مُعَاوِيَةُ بْنُ صَالِحٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي الزَّاهِرِيَّةِ ، عَنْ جُبَيْرِ بْنِ نُفَيْرٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي الدَّرْدَاءِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ، قَالَ : إِذَا خُيِّرْتُمْ بَيْنَ الْأَرَضِينَ ، فَلَا تَخْتَارُوا أَرْمِينِيَةَ ، فَإِنَّ فِيهَا قِطْعَةٌ مِنْ عَذَابِ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى
 
Sulayman Kindi REJECTED Translation: Sayyiduna Abu Dardā' al-Anṣāri (RA) narrates that Rasul-ullah (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) said, “If you are forced to choose between two nations then do not choose Armenia because torment of Allah descends upon a piece of its land. [Al-Mustadrak ala aṣ-Ṣaḥeeḥayn]
 
Sulayman Kindi ACCEPTED Translation:  Sayyiduna Abu Dardā' al-Anṣāri (RA) narrates that Rasul-ullah (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) said, “When you will choose between two lands then do not choose Armenia because torment of Allah descends upon a piece of its land. [Al-Mustadrak ala aṣ-Ṣaḥeeḥayn]
 

Imam Shams ad-Dīn adh-Dhahabī (RA) has graded this narration as authentic.

 
 حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ ، حدثنا بَحْرٌ ، حدثنا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ ، قَالَ : وَأَخْبَرَنِي مُعَاوِيَةُ ، عَنْ صَفْوَانَ بْنِ عَمْرٍو ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ جُبَيْرِ بْنِ نُفَيْرٍ ، عَنْ كَعْبٍ ، قَالَ : الْجَزِيرَةُ آمِنَةٌ مِنَ الْخَرَابِ حَتَّى تَخْرَبَ أَرْمِينِيَةُ ، وَمِصْرُ آمِنَةٌ مِنَ الْخَرَابِ حَتَّى تَخْرَبَ الْجَزِيرَةُ ، وَالْكُوفَةُ آمِنَةٌ مِنَ الْخَرَابِ حَتَّى تَخْرَبَ مِصْرُ ، وَلَا تَكُونُ الْمَلْحَمَةُ حَتَّى تَخْرَبَ الْكُوفَةُ ، وَلَا تُفْتَحُ مَدِينَةُ الْكُفْرِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ الْمَلْحَمَةُ ، وَلَا يَخْرُجُ الدَّجَّالُ حَتَّى تُفْتَحَ مَدِينَةُ الْكُفْرِ
 

Sayyiduna Ka'b (RA) narrates that Rasul-ullah (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) said, “The Island is in peace until Armenia is destroyed. Egypt is safe until Island is destroyed. Kufa is safe until Egypt is destroyed and wars will not start until Kufa is destroyed. The city of disbelief will not be conquered until wars have started and Dajjal will not emerge until the city of disbelief is conquered. [Al-Mustadrak ala aṣ-Ṣaḥeeḥayn]

Imam Shams ad-Dīn adh-Dhahabī (RA) has graded this narration as  munqati' (broken).

Fatwa of many Ulama of Pakistan

  1. It is not befitting for a Muslim to oppose the explicit Hadeeth and support Armenia.
  2. Whether you choose to support Azerbaijan and its Muslims is your choice.

The two are separate issues, although may Ulama agree with Azerbaijan and return of Muslims to Nagorno-Karbagh and re-opening of Masajid etc which were converted into Churches and stables by Non-Muslims

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  • 2 weeks later...

What is al-Jazeera? 

 

Wikipedia says Upper Mesopotamia is the name used for the uplands and great outwash plain of northwestern Iraq, northeastern Syria and southeastern Turkey, in the northern Middle East. Since the early Muslim conquests of the mid-7th century, the region has been known by the traditional Arabic name of al-Jazira (Arabic: الجزيرة‎ "the island", also transliterated Djazirah, Djezirah, Jazirah) and the Syriac variant Gāzartā or Gozarto (ܓܙܪܬܐ).

 

350px-Jazira.png.da1226cc3df2c9f4f2f8de69d905c8fd.png

Al-Jazira—Upper Mesopotamia Region, within the Middle East.

 

For better understanding take a look at these maps:

 

IMG_20201211_160331_164.thumb.jpg.afeb7c27e9e7bfa748e8a2a95b9edab5.jpg

Abbasid Provinces during the caliphate of Harun al-Rashid - 786 to 809

 

IMG_20201211_160334_742.thumb.jpg.17b40d177454c7032166eb920afc4165.jpg

The Middle East in the latter half of the 13th Century

 

IMG_20201211_160337_022.thumb.jpg.c82b6f0798919d6681256f9c2b350c5c.jpg

The Growth of the Ottoman Sultanate from the early 14th to 15th Centuries

 

IMG_20201211_160339_161.thumb.jpg.c15a0a098f096f006988a767a6501f6a.jpg

The Later Timurid Period

 

Source: https://www.princeton.edu/~humcomp/dimensions.html

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The second hadeeth that references al-Jazeera is broken. Brother ColonelHardstone provided the translation in answer to a question I posed to him and others on Twitter. JazakAllahu khayran, brother 

Alhamdulillah, it is clear to me that - inshaallah - we as Muslims will not support Armenia. That is the clear point in all of this.

As for Azerbaijan - not only are there Sunnis there but its people are mostly Muslim (Shi'a) in name, not in practice. As I understand it, they were Sunni at one point in history and have maintained many Sunni practices (e.g. their adhaan is called out 5 times a day and does not include the phrase Shi'a add, i.e. "Muhammad and Ali are the best of mankind and their progeny is the best of progenies"). 

NB: It is important to note that this conversation has been taking place and has been taken up on at least 5 different platforms. Allahu Akbar! As such, when parts of the conversation carry over to one and not the others, we get an incomplete picture and this can lead to misunderstanding or, at the very least, significant details can be missed (e.g. the rating of the hadeeth).

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1 hour ago, Acacia said:

The second hadeeth that references al-Jazeera is broken. Brother ColonelHardstone provided the translation in answer to a question I posed to him and others on Twitter. JazakAllahu khayran, brother 

Alhamdulillah, it is clear to me that - inshaallah - we as Muslims will not support Armenia. That is the clear point in all of this.

As for Azerbaijan - not only are there Sunnis there but its people are mostly Muslim (Shi'a) in name, not in practice. As I understand it, they were Sunni at one point in history and have maintained many Sunni practices (e.g. their adhaan is called out 5 times a day and does not include the phrase Shi'a add, i.e. "Muhammad and Ali are the best of mankind and their progeny is the best of progenies"). 

NB: It is important to note that this conversation has been taking place and has been taken up on at least 5 different platforms. Allahu Akbar! As such, when parts of the conversation carry over to one and not the others, we get an incomplete picture and this can lead to misunderstanding or, at the very least, significant details can be missed (e.g. the rating of the hadeeth).

Assalaamu alaikum sister, 

I appreciate Colonel provided these translations and also took out the time to get them approved by a Mufti in Pakistan but as Shaykh Sulayman al-Kindi has explained there is an error in the translation and after I read his article I considered it my duty as a follower of Rasulullah صلی الله عليه وسلم to share that on this forum and Muftisays where these ahadith have been posted in the context of the current war of Armenia and Azerbaijan. 

People can support whatever they want and there is no need for anyone to use the ahadith of Rasulullah صلی الله عليه وسلم in this manner in order to justify their political affiliations. Hope you understand my point :)

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Waalaikummussalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu, dear sister:

You are also making the same hurtful error Shaykh Sulayman al-Kindi makes when you state: "... these ahadith have been posted in the context of the current war of Armenia and Azerbaijan... there is no need for anyone to use the ahadith of Rasulullah  صلی الله عليه وسلم in this manner in order to justify their political affiliations..." This is an assumption the Shaykh furhter ties to what he refers to as an "end of times virus."

Since it was my initial twitter post that got the ball rolling, inshaallah I will share the context of my question: youth who have decided to cut ties with friends and family because of their support for Azerbaijan. I personally know of at least 1 such youth who refuses to take my salaams and communicate with me until I make tawbah and make public apologies for supporting Azerbaijan. Ironically, that youth's stance fits neatly in what the Shaykh outlines in same blog post - extremism (see 1/3). I truly am concerned for our youth (and others) who hold such extreme views.

In other words, my motivation had nothing to do with an "end times virus." Any assistance by brother Colonel Hardstone on this topic has also been - I fully believe - genuine and not at all driven by any such agenda. Since they were born from the brief conversation they had on twitter following my original tweet, it is unfair to brother Colonel Hardstone for the Shaykh to make the following assumptions and hurtful comments (they may not be hurtful to the brother but they are to readers like me). Such comments include:

 “I most certainly have a problem with using the sacred words of Allāh’s Messenger () as a tool for an agenda, instead of us being his willing tools. I have an even greater problem when the translation and interpretation are tweaked to service an agenda.”

“We are all human, prone to error, but to change, ‘When you will choose between the lands’ into ‘If you are forced to choose between two nations…’ shows utter carelessness with the words of Allāh’s Messenger () at best, and context points to the possibility of deliberate slanting of the translation to achieve an intended meaning. In either case, these are crimes against Allāh’s Messenger () which should not be condoned.”

“… I would hope that this was another careless mistake, but the evidence of the continuous distortion of the translations leave open the sad probability of people trying to make Ḥadīth suit their agenda.”   

“Taken collectively, these weird translations point to those infected with the end times virus having slanted the words of Allāh’s Messenger () to achieve an agenda. In this case, the agenda is to prove that he specifically referred to the current Armenian-Azeri war. This is a very audacious move…”

“… It is not for me to impute words and meaning into the mouth of Allāh’s Messenger () like others do.”

I really wish the Shaykh would have taken a softer approach and engaged in dialogue rather than getting his heckles up.

Inshaallah you understand the whole point in all this - helping youth see and understand the present conflict, and stopping them and others from turning their backs on Azerbaijan and those who support Azerbaijan in this conflict.

As for the hadeeth, it is crystal clear that Armenia - regardless of where it is - is not to be supported.

Fee amaanillah

(emphasis added to quotes in this post are mine)

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37 minutes ago, Acacia said:

You are also making the same hurtful error Shaykh Sulayman al-Kindi makes when you state: "... these ahadith have been posted in the context of the current war of Armenia and Azerbaijan

I don't understand how's that an error when the title and contents of both threads on this forum and Muftisays clearly discuss the war between these two nations and these ahadith have been used unambiguously to justify supporting Azerbaijan. 

I don't know what had prompted you to enquire about these ahadith but if there is a person who has broken ties with you just because of your political stance then it is clear that they need to learn the basics of Islam as it is clearly haram to break ties with a Muslim but to use the ahadith of Rasulullah صلی الله عليه وسلم when they don't even mention anything about Azerbaijan in order to persuade them is an equally incorrect approach.

I don't want to hurt you or Muadh_Khan by any of my comments and I know that Shaykh Sulayman al-Kindi's article was a bit too strong but I agree with the main point which he has tried to explain and if you understood Urdu, you too would agree that the hadith has been misinterpreted.

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No Muslim would support Armenia anyways but the issue is that...

8 minutes ago, Acacia said:

The hadeeth is about not supporting Armenia, ever.

..the hadith does not say anything like that at all. The hadith simply says "when you have to choose between lands, then do not coose Armenia..."

Please read what Shaykh Sulayman has tried to explain once again: I believe the Ḥadīth simply advices Ṣaḥābah not to settle in Armenia, but I may be wrong. I cannot deny the possibility that others are correct and that it does indeed refer to the current conflict, but can one so brazenly specify a Ḥadīth which is so loosely stated?”

That is the main issue here which you need to understand. In the video linked above Mufti Saeed Ahmed Sahab has translated al-Jazeera as Azerbaijan and these translations and interpretations caused Shaykh Sulayman to be stern in his rebuttal.

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Sister, canim, I did not say the hadeeth says this, I say it is about this - I actually did this deliberately because I am aware of the discussion here (i.e. the translation and meaning). Also, I read the Shaykh's words a few times do indeed understand what he is saying. You see, though, he doesn't even mention that possibility until the very end. Even he says he "cannot deny the possibility that others are correct." Ultimately it is his view and I have no idea what his credentials are but there are other views on this.

Furthermore, and I have no credentials in relation to the hadeeth itself other than to be a Muslim - alhamdulillah - with some ability to think rationally. Even if the hadeeth was simply to advise Sahabah not to settle in Armenia, truly there must be a reason for this. Yet further, what exactly comprises "Armenia" is contentious. 

I can't comment on the video (which is in Urdu), nor can I comment on the translation of the hadeeth (the original of which is in Arabic). I'm simply stating that it is incorrect and hurtful to assume a Muslim is bending the words of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wa sallem) to justify political affiliations or to engage in extremism and obsess about the end of times. Inshaallah it would have been far better to have husn dhan and continue the dialogue where it started so the thread was clear.

May Allah Ta'aala grant us understanding. Ameen.

Fee amaanillah.

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On 12/11/2020 at 9:45 PM, Acacia said:

Ultimately it is his view and I have no idea what his credentials are but there are other views on this.

Until a few days ago you were asking him questions. Now all of a sudden you've started wondering about his credentials. If you were not going to accept his analysis why did you even ask him those questions in the first place? Is it because you were expecting a response in favour of your preconceived opinion?

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3 hours ago, Bint e Aisha said:

Until a few days ago you were asking him questions. Now all of a sudden you've started wondering about his credentials. If you were not going to accept his analysis why did you even ask him those questions in the first place? Is it because you were expecting a response in favour of your preconceived opinion?

Not at all, sister. I do respect the Shaykh, I simply don't know what his credentials are (fully). Also, I do appreciate his input on this and other matters, too. That's not to say his is the only analysis and that I have to go with it.  I'm not a mureed or anything like that, nor am I a student of his. I've also disagreed with him on some of his blog posts. In other words, this isn't an all-or-nothing position.

Also, you'll see he wasn't the only one I asked in my original tweet.

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22 minutes ago, Acacia said:

Not at all, sister. I do respect the Shaykh, I simply don't know what his credentials are (fully). Also, I do appreciate his input on this and other matters, too. That's not to say his is the only analysis and that I have to go with it.  I'm not a mureed or anything like that, nor am I a student of his. I've also disagreed with him on some of his blog posts. In other words, this isn't an all-or-nothing position.

Also, you'll see he wasn't the only one I asked in my original tweet.

Ok I got it 👍

Thanks for clarifying.

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On 11/28/2020 at 6:25 PM, ColonelHardstone said:

 

My Sources & Research (Partially disclosed)

Armenia should not be supported (Hadeeth)


1.    Mufti Muhammad Saeed Khan (HA), Rawalpindi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3PUJ-JWKXY
2.    Mufti Asadullah Shebaaz (Senior Mufti Jamiatur-Rasheed), this is him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzotz0ftezs
3.    Mufti Ali Munir (HA) (Islamabad), Mureed and student of Shaykhul-Islam Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA), this is him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmNy_t4bf4Q
4.     I then asked 2 & 3 about “Fatwa” and both independently responded that there is no official Fatwa but majority of Ulama (of Pakistan) are of the opinion that “according to clear cut Hadeeth”, Armenia cannot be supported
5.    The supposed “mistranslation” of the first part of Hadeeth has on bearing on the conclusion


Azerbaijan not “Shia”


1.    I contacted Darul-Iftaa Jamiatur-Rasheed (Karachi) to get details for Mufti Abu Lubaba Shah Mansoor (HA) in Istanbul, they asked me why so I told them about Azerbaijan. They replied to say that they have already asked and Mufti Saheb (HA) asked another Mufti to answer the issue who knows Azerbaijan
2.    They forwarded me the Urdu message and gave me permission to share it.
3.    They also forwarded me Arabic messages from Turkish Ulama
4.    I also checked in Pakistan with couples who have done their Honeymoon in Baku (Azerbaijan) and the Mosques call out Sunni (standard) Adhan and pray times. I know that very very well that of Pakistanees generally doing their Honeymoon in Baku (Azerbaijan)
5.    I then went through many Media sources (English, Turkish, Azeri and Urdu) and specifically looked for “Shia” Adhan or Shia rituals in the war and did not find any. There might be some but I did not find any so it leads me to conclude that majority are Sunni.

All of this I shared with Shaykh Sulayman Al-Kindi (HA) and asked his sources for declaring Azerbaijan (Shia) other than Wikpedia. I admitted that he didn’t know any of this but neither disclosed his sources nor changed his mind.

But blocked me on Twitter!


Azerbaijan being an “Island” ?


1.    I did my research and found the chain to be defective but I am a nobody so ignored my research.
2.    Imam Shams ad-Dīn adh-Dhahabī (RA) declared the chain to be defected
3.    I then checked the Urdu translation of another Shaykhul-Hadeeth and the adopted this opinion
4.    I did not include this Hadeeth in my analysis but quoted Mufti Saeed Saheb (HA) that it is “possible” that it applied to Azerbaijan
5.     I even make a statement in my video about “political support”.

After all this, I and Mufti Saeed Saheb (HA) get accused of “twisting the Hadeeth”.

I of being judgemental, having preconceived ideas and notions.

All I am asking for is from those who disagree to bring forth their research and let us judge your opinion and sources.

These "South Africans" have accused Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA) of Kuf'r so who am I if I am being blocked on Twitter and personally targeted? And they have been doing it to me for years....All I do is expose the "research" and diligence on a specific topic!

And I have "preconceived support for Azerbaijan" due to Nationalism after doing all of the above but they are quoting Wikipedia about Azerbaijan being Shia and sticking to it and I am the one with the problem! :)

P.S: Yes Irony died, I know...:) :) :)

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